Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ohwilleke · 06-02-2003, 05:32 PM

Quite an interesting study. Actually, the birth control failure numbers are almost as interesting as the forgetting numbers, if not more so.

Most common forms of birth control are 98-99% effective when used properly. Given that, on average it takes six months to get pregnant with no birth control (just an average), this implies that it takes on average at least 3000 months (i.e. 250 years) on average to get pregnant with birth control. Assuming that a typical woman uses birth control for 20-25 years, this would be 10% of birth control using women getting pregnant anyway in a lifetime. This would contribute to less than 8-10% of all births, since presumably, some women have abortions (a large percentage of preganncies end that way and one would expect more among such accidents), and because many couples use sterilzation, which is hard to accidentally do wrong, for a good part of their reproductive years.

These figures showed a roughly 20% accident rate, or about two to three times what this theory would predict.

One would expect that both forgetting and misuse of birth control might have hormonal impacts.

And, while differences in cognative function are not proven by this study. They are not unprecedented. One recent study (reported in Science News, I believe) showed that women's performance on "structural vision" type tasks varied from to almost identical to men during their periods to much worse than men during ovulation. I'm not vouching for that study personally, but it does at least provide some coroborration for the hypothesis.

Who's to say that the presence of male pheremones don't exacerbate this effect? Maybe sex does make you stupdi.

Daleth · 06-02-2003, 05:38 PM

OK, for the benefit of Elvithriel I withdraw my previous comments and answer in the style of cricket who responded first.

Yeah, it's possible that hormones cause this sort of forgetfulness.

I'll try to remember in the future that when somebody posts a scientific study, I'm not supposed to comment on the studies themselves. And YES, Elvithriel, ANY question is valid. I never said it wasn't. You pulled that out of your ass. I'm sorry if you're having a bad day.

Dal

Elvithriel · 06-02-2003, 05:43 PM

I was just going to mention the failure rate as well. Looks like some of them aren't telling the truth. Any thoughts on the reason?

06-02-2003, 05:59 PM

Eisenman, R. (2003) Forgetting to use birth control: unwanted pregnancies support evolutionary psychology theory. Journal of Evolutionary Psychology, 2003: 30.

That's a good joke ...

Evolutionary process should involve transfering genetic materials from two MATURED organisms (a Male and Female) into a new organisms of the same species. In a way, it involved voluntary process between the two organism to produce a third member.

I don't think popping a girl only to remember that she forgot to swallow some pills is a way toward Evolution.

God Fearing Atheist · 06-02-2003, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ohwilleke
One would expect that both forgetting and misuse of birth control might have hormonal impacts.

Quite right. He actually suggests that in the paper.

-GFA

scigirl · 06-03-2003, 09:32 AM

Um allow me to point out a tiny little detail that may be relevant to this discussion...

Quote:

From what you've outlined about this study, it's not even marginally sufficient to draw that conclusion. They'd have to show that women are more likely to forget to use birth control when ovulating than they are to forget it at other points in their cycle.

Women on birth control pills don't ovulate.

scigirl

scigirl · 06-03-2003, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ohwilleke
Maybe sex does make you stupdi.

A little empirical evidence, huh?

scigirl

Daleth · 06-03-2003, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by scigirl
Women on birth control pills don't ovulate.

Having read only the excerpt of the study above, I assumed it was about all forms of birth control, not specifically BCP.

Women using diaphragms do ovulate.

Dal

scigirl · 06-03-2003, 05:07 PM

True - I'll have to read the study sometime. If they lumped all forms of birth control together, however, this would be a poor study, since the hormone levels/changes vary among the different types.

scigirl

The Lone Ranger · 06-03-2003, 05:43 PM

On a related note, Karl Grammer* found that women in night clubs consistently wore shorter, tighter, and skimpier dresses and were more flirtatious close to ovulation than at other times during their monthly cycles.

Natalie Angier points out in Woman: An Intimate Geography that this does not necessarily indicate increased sexual desire around this time, however. Other changes that accompany ovulation -- reduced water retention and its associated bloating, and lack of menstrual blood -- may make this the best time to wear tight, revealing clothing.

Cheers,

Michael

*Grammer, Karl. 1996. The Human Mating Game: The Battle of the Sexes and the War of Signals. Paper presented at the Human Behavior and Evolution Society annual conference, Northwestern University, Evanston, IL.

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06-02-2003, 05:32 PM	#11
ohwilleke Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Denver, Colorado, USA Posts: 4,834	Quite an interesting study. Actually, the birth control failure numbers are almost as interesting as the forgetting numbers, if not more so. Most common forms of birth control are 98-99% effective when used properly. Given that, on average it takes six months to get pregnant with no birth control (just an average), this implies that it takes on average at least 3000 months (i.e. 250 years) on average to get pregnant with birth control. Assuming that a typical woman uses birth control for 20-25 years, this would be 10% of birth control using women getting pregnant anyway in a lifetime. This would contribute to less than 8-10% of all births, since presumably, some women have abortions (a large percentage of preganncies end that way and one would expect more among such accidents), and because many couples use sterilzation, which is hard to accidentally do wrong, for a good part of their reproductive years. These figures showed a roughly 20% accident rate, or about two to three times what this theory would predict. One would expect that both forgetting and misuse of birth control might have hormonal impacts. And, while differences in cognative function are not proven by this study. They are not unprecedented. One recent study (reported in Science News, I believe) showed that women's performance on "structural vision" type tasks varied from to almost identical to men during their periods to much worse than men during ovulation. I'm not vouching for that study personally, but it does at least provide some coroborration for the hypothesis. Who's to say that the presence of male pheremones don't exacerbate this effect? Maybe sex does make you stupdi.

06-02-2003, 05:38 PM	#12
Daleth Regular Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: NYC, 5th floor, on the left Posts: 372	OK, for the benefit of Elvithriel I withdraw my previous comments and answer in the style of cricket who responded first. Yeah, it's possible that hormones cause this sort of forgetfulness. I'll try to remember in the future that when somebody posts a scientific study, I'm not supposed to comment on the studies themselves. And YES, Elvithriel, ANY question is valid. I never said it wasn't. You pulled that out of your ass. I'm sorry if you're having a bad day. Dal

06-02-2003, 05:43 PM	#13
Elvithriel Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Canada Posts: 127	I was just going to mention the failure rate as well. Looks like some of them aren't telling the truth. Any thoughts on the reason?

06-02-2003, 05:59 PM	#14
Seraphim Guest Posts: n/a	Eisenman, R. (2003) Forgetting to use birth control: unwanted pregnancies support evolutionary psychology theory. Journal of Evolutionary Psychology, 2003: 30. That's a good joke ... Evolutionary process should involve transfering genetic materials from two MATURED organisms (a Male and Female) into a new organisms of the same species. In a way, it involved voluntary process between the two organism to produce a third member. I don't think popping a girl only to remember that she forgot to swallow some pills is a way toward Evolution.

06-03-2003, 05:07 PM	#19
scigirl Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Seattle Posts: 4,261	True - I'll have to read the study sometime. If they lumped all forms of birth control together, however, this would be a poor study, since the hormone levels/changes vary among the different types. scigirl

06-03-2003, 05:43 PM	#20
The Lone Ranger Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Eastern U.S. Posts: 1,230	On a related note, Karl Grammer* found that women in night clubs consistently wore shorter, tighter, and skimpier dresses and were more flirtatious close to ovulation than at other times during their monthly cycles. Natalie Angier points out in Woman: An Intimate Geography that this does not necessarily indicate increased sexual desire around this time, however. Other changes that accompany ovulation -- reduced water retention and its associated bloating, and lack of menstrual blood -- may make this the best time to wear tight, revealing clothing. Cheers, Michael *Grammer, Karl. 1996. The Human Mating Game: The Battle of the Sexes and the War of Signals. Paper presented at the Human Behavior and Evolution Society annual conference, Northwestern University, Evanston, IL.

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